With books like 'Ivanhoe', it's their duality that allows their meaning to be so strongly analysed and conveyed. The background of 'simplicity' these stories are built upon gives a sturdy foundation for the complex conversations. Your analysis, especially on freedom, resonated with my own thoughts. Timeless themes, that of chivalry, identity, and freedom aren't gained from external factors but instead are a state of being - as you eloquently stated, freedom is 'the fruit of a spirit given wholly to God and to reason as its guide'. Great read!
Thank you for sharing! I was considering reading some WScott- think I now have a place to start.
I am part way through one of my summer reads- ‘Three Musketeers’ and recognize some similar themes. I have been pleasantly surprised also by the humor.
Books where characters are striving to be noble and virtuous are in short supply. It is truly an ideal worth preserving and pursuing. Thank you for bringing Ivanhoe to our attention!
Chris Gargan; given that Marx's turgid manifesto was published in 1848, predating Twain's literary fame by almost thirty years, it is possible that Twain, out of morbid curiosity, ploughed his way through Karl's joy-crushing wank-fest. Possible. But improbable. Twain was too full of wit, wonder and intelligence to absorb that tripe, so, no, I wouldn't dream of telling Twain that he was a "Marxist swine!" But if the cap fits, you are, at present anyway, until the dawn of your Woke Nirvana, free, to put it on and wear it.
I loved Ivanhoe as a girl, and I love this post. Some great points. My rollicking tale of choice is J. Fenimore Cooper's The Last Of The Mohicans. Similar themes. Similarly complex characters. Hoorah for chivalry and bravery!
I much prefer Mark Twain's attitude towards Walter Scott's writing: he despised it. He blamed much of the invented chivalry and class derision of the American South of the shallow, phony values promulgated by Scott in his "adventure" stories. He saw Scott's writing as promoting feudal attitudes that reinforced entrenched ideas regarding slavery and breeding a hostility to progress and industry. And as for Scott's attitudes towards Jews, they redeem themselves in his writing only when they embrace christianity. Scott is the perfect author for MAGA illiterates.
Woah! There’s a lot here… just to address one comment you made. Rebecca is Scott’s paradigm of virtue in the novel and she never once embraces Christianity. She holds to the faith of her fathers through every trial. The novel presents her fidelity as a virtue, not a shortcoming. So it seems that Scott’s own characters refute your claim.
Please ignore that post, my goodness. I love Mark Twain too, but ask that poster about some of the things Twain said about African-Americans. He was no saint. And I don't understand how anybody could blame an author whose work is appropriated decades after he's gone, without his knowledge or consent. If 50 years from now somebody says Little House on the Prairie is anti-Native American, should we castigate Laura Ingalls Wilder? I consider Ivanhoe in my top five books of all time. Of course it's a romantic tale of chivalry and honor. That's the point of it. If we cannot figure out how to balance the discourse between the art and artist, we're going to eliminate 99.9% of every book, movie, etc. from availability.
You don't read much, do you? A tragically typical "woke" whine. The chivalric code was not invented by Scott for literary purposes. And the only shallow, phony values I can see eminate from the Marxist minions who try to rewrite a history they know nothing of.
Exactly> She does not embrace christianity (I worded my statement poorly) and does not marry and in fact ends up leaving England, perhaps voluntarily perhaps not, because she is "othered". Her virtues and values are intact but only in opposition to the fraudulent invented qualities of chivalry. Ivanhoe stands for rigid hierarchy and conformity. Her otherness makes her incompatible with the society Scott is lionizing.
Ah, I think I see what you are saying! I think there is certainly a subtle critique present within Scott’s championing of the society of old England. He is praising it in many ways, showing a lot of its good side, but he also isn’t afraid to show its ugly side. I noticed that every single one of his “ideal heroes” has pretty obvious shortcomings. Ivanhoe is unjustly prejudiced against Rebecca. King Richard is a fun guy to hang out with and go on adventures with, but he’s not the most discerning or prudent leader. Even the last line of the book hints that Richard’s England is not sustainable, though it adds “a good moral” to the story.
I think it’s entirely possible for Scott to hold those two views in tension: on one hand the praise of the glories and festivities of such a society, but on the other hand the awareness that if it isn’t backed by *real* virtue (not just feigned) then it won’t be enough to reconcile all peoples (such as Rebecca) to living there.
Am 2/3ds the way through and enjoying it immensely, finding it a wonderful restorative to these chaotic days!
With books like 'Ivanhoe', it's their duality that allows their meaning to be so strongly analysed and conveyed. The background of 'simplicity' these stories are built upon gives a sturdy foundation for the complex conversations. Your analysis, especially on freedom, resonated with my own thoughts. Timeless themes, that of chivalry, identity, and freedom aren't gained from external factors but instead are a state of being - as you eloquently stated, freedom is 'the fruit of a spirit given wholly to God and to reason as its guide'. Great read!
Thank you for sharing! I was considering reading some WScott- think I now have a place to start.
I am part way through one of my summer reads- ‘Three Musketeers’ and recognize some similar themes. I have been pleasantly surprised also by the humor.
Ah, that one has been on my list for a long time. I’m glad to hear that it sounds similar!
Books where characters are striving to be noble and virtuous are in short supply. It is truly an ideal worth preserving and pursuing. Thank you for bringing Ivanhoe to our attention!
Chris Gargan; given that Marx's turgid manifesto was published in 1848, predating Twain's literary fame by almost thirty years, it is possible that Twain, out of morbid curiosity, ploughed his way through Karl's joy-crushing wank-fest. Possible. But improbable. Twain was too full of wit, wonder and intelligence to absorb that tripe, so, no, I wouldn't dream of telling Twain that he was a "Marxist swine!" But if the cap fits, you are, at present anyway, until the dawn of your Woke Nirvana, free, to put it on and wear it.
I loved Ivanhoe as a girl, and I love this post. Some great points. My rollicking tale of choice is J. Fenimore Cooper's The Last Of The Mohicans. Similar themes. Similarly complex characters. Hoorah for chivalry and bravery!
I much prefer Mark Twain's attitude towards Walter Scott's writing: he despised it. He blamed much of the invented chivalry and class derision of the American South of the shallow, phony values promulgated by Scott in his "adventure" stories. He saw Scott's writing as promoting feudal attitudes that reinforced entrenched ideas regarding slavery and breeding a hostility to progress and industry. And as for Scott's attitudes towards Jews, they redeem themselves in his writing only when they embrace christianity. Scott is the perfect author for MAGA illiterates.
Woah! There’s a lot here… just to address one comment you made. Rebecca is Scott’s paradigm of virtue in the novel and she never once embraces Christianity. She holds to the faith of her fathers through every trial. The novel presents her fidelity as a virtue, not a shortcoming. So it seems that Scott’s own characters refute your claim.
Please ignore that post, my goodness. I love Mark Twain too, but ask that poster about some of the things Twain said about African-Americans. He was no saint. And I don't understand how anybody could blame an author whose work is appropriated decades after he's gone, without his knowledge or consent. If 50 years from now somebody says Little House on the Prairie is anti-Native American, should we castigate Laura Ingalls Wilder? I consider Ivanhoe in my top five books of all time. Of course it's a romantic tale of chivalry and honor. That's the point of it. If we cannot figure out how to balance the discourse between the art and artist, we're going to eliminate 99.9% of every book, movie, etc. from availability.
You don't read much, do you? A tragically typical "woke" whine. The chivalric code was not invented by Scott for literary purposes. And the only shallow, phony values I can see eminate from the Marxist minions who try to rewrite a history they know nothing of.
Oh dear. Please awaken Mark Twain from his slumbers and inform him that he is a Marxist swine.
Ahhh, the political comment.
Exactly> She does not embrace christianity (I worded my statement poorly) and does not marry and in fact ends up leaving England, perhaps voluntarily perhaps not, because she is "othered". Her virtues and values are intact but only in opposition to the fraudulent invented qualities of chivalry. Ivanhoe stands for rigid hierarchy and conformity. Her otherness makes her incompatible with the society Scott is lionizing.
Ah, I think I see what you are saying! I think there is certainly a subtle critique present within Scott’s championing of the society of old England. He is praising it in many ways, showing a lot of its good side, but he also isn’t afraid to show its ugly side. I noticed that every single one of his “ideal heroes” has pretty obvious shortcomings. Ivanhoe is unjustly prejudiced against Rebecca. King Richard is a fun guy to hang out with and go on adventures with, but he’s not the most discerning or prudent leader. Even the last line of the book hints that Richard’s England is not sustainable, though it adds “a good moral” to the story.
I think it’s entirely possible for Scott to hold those two views in tension: on one hand the praise of the glories and festivities of such a society, but on the other hand the awareness that if it isn’t backed by *real* virtue (not just feigned) then it won’t be enough to reconcile all peoples (such as Rebecca) to living there.
Good stuff to think about!